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Here’s the full text of the recent Zhang Haoming Interview for Art Newspaper. It got edited down a bit in the printed version. This is the raw un edited interview transcript, translated from Chinese.

Zhang Haoming- China’s rock and roll collector

Zhang Haoming is a leading personality in Beijing’s art scene, with a share in one of the leading galleries, Art Now, and a broad and widespread eclectic interest in global contemporary art. Besides his large collection of several hundred installations and other works Zhang is building a 45 room art hotel in Beijing and is developing his Karaoke Dining concept- where you cook your own food, and appear on television. He invited the Art Newspaper to his home in the Beijing suburbs, which is sometimes described locally as a mini Guggenheim.

TAN: Could you simply introduce yourself, your business, your interest in contemporary art?
ZHM: I began my first business in China in 1997, managing a clothing brand. But after a period I gave up the apparel business because the development of brand s in China at that time was very hard, and only a small selelct group of cusiotmers would buy brands. Especially with thos e specialized brands, it was too difficult, so I gave up that business.
Although that business didn’t work out I got an unexpected reward- during my dealings over 5 years with the French brand owner, a sports fan and collector, through my visits to his home and our relations, I began to become aware of modern art. I realized art is not only something you put in museums, it is something that can be linked to your life in a special way.
Since 2002, I began paying attention to art. A t that time I mainly on classical oil paintings of a realistic pieces. People of my generation received a Soviet style education. So most oil paintings we saw were of a revolutionary nature and had combative content, reflecting the policy that art should serve political purposes. This means what we saw before was directly linked with politics. Also, because we did not receive much art education and instruction. Only when you see a very stunning and beautiful piece, with superb technical skill, will you say, “oh, I never thought painting could be like that. My initial interest in and love of art also started with realistic and classical works. But that was for a very brief period and only lasted 2-3 months. Then I met Huang Liaoyuan, the partner of my current art gallery (Art Now Gallery). He had been dealing with rock and roll musicians as a planner and broker, arranging gigs and what have you. We were high school together actually. When we met again after a decade I mentioned my interest in art and that I was visiting galleries. In our conversation he gave me a suggestion, or rather, put a new concept into my mind. This is the concept of contemporary art, which I never had any idea of before. I always thought what we call painting was the total be all and end all of art. Most contemporary artists in China were fans of rock music and were rock musicians themselves, and they were all in touch with Huang since he was in the music business. These artists shared the alternative attitude of Beijing’s musicians. So Huang was connected to those artists for well over a decade. When Huang celebrated his birthday those poor artists had nothing to give him as a gift, but their paintings. He came up with a collection of over 600 such gifts in nearly 2 decades. Quite some of the artists who did the paintings are very famous now in the world, such as Zhang Xiaogang, Yue Mingjun, Fang Lijun, Wang Guangyi and Yang Shaobin.. With his very close connection with the contemporary art community, he introduced me to those artists, and I started collecting their works. Since the end of 2002, I became a collector of Chinese contemporary art. Early in 2003, when China was hit by SARS and everybody wanted to stay home, I interacted with those artists who were staying together drinking. I visited their studios and bought their works. At that time there was no local market for their work like today and the only active buyers were from overseas. So at my early stage of collecting, I did not spend a lot of money getting some nice pieces, the value of that work has gone up a lot by now.
Over the recent 2-3 years, I had a shift in my collecting approach. This is partly because I acquired good contemporary pieces for reasonable prices before the market came into being, and I don’t want to buy things at today’s high prices. Secondly, I think art is a strange thing. Simply put, it is an outlet of people’s emotions.

TAN: How do you view the recent developments in modern Chinese society in relation to art?

Speaking of Chinese contemorary art, I read some books authored by leading critics andcurators. Generally speaking, I agree with Li Xianping’s popular assessment which divides the contemporary art scene into a few distinct stages, and several main streams segments. The year 1979 marks the inception of Chinese contemporary art by the artists who arranged their own shows before there were art galleries, by members of the Xingxing School. In 1985, a new school of thought came into being. I am fortunate to be a contemporary of many artists today. Born in 1962, Fang Lijun and Yue Mingjun are of the same age as me. So we experienced the same things. During 1980-1985, most Chinese young people enjoyed reading western philosophical classics which were looked on as an alternative to communist teachings. And there was a popular debate by artists in the country who were followers of western philosophical classics, like Satre, which were cited by them as a basis in their arguments. So the new school of thinking in 1985 was not something like a storm, but rather a result of years of preparation in the society. Later we experienced some other ideological movements. The debates, among young people and between the government and young people, served as a prelude to the 1989 student movement. A lot of strength was accumulated among many young people and it looked like a democratic spring was at the doorstep. An unrestricted attitude towards artistic creation was felt much stronger than today. Many works completed at the time showed a feeling that there was nothing you were forbidden to say or do. That is why in the political movement in 1989 many young people did positive things. This has a direct relationship with these people’s pro-western attitudes and the acceptance of thinking and theories from the west. At that time people thought they were looking for democracy and freedom and human rights. This was the overall state of young people in China before the movement, which is reflected in literary works and paintings.

After the 1989 movement, the Chinese art community was depressed for quite a long time. People felt very helpless and lost when they saw the result. So you can see when people no longer talked about politics, everybody started talking about money. Because people felt it was useless and hopeless discussing those things they used to be so enthusiastic about, another kind of philosophy found its place among young people, especially young intellectuals, which is to stay away from politics and live a materialist life. So you can see two streams in contemporary Chinese art. One is politics and the other is cynical realism. The former is embodied by older artists mostly born in the mid 1950s, such as Wang Guangyi and Zhang Xiaogang (born in 1954 and 1958 respectively), whose understanding of the society is sharper than ours. These people’s works focused on reflection of the society during the cultural revolution. Others, represented by Fang Lijun, Yue Mingjun and Yang Shaobin, who born in the early 1960s, and witnessed the bloody events of1989.
They grew up after that and felt very depressed and helpless. So most of the content of their works involve stupid smiles, poker faces or the naive expression of peasants in the north, or self-mockery. So from the historical point of view, this stage of Chinese contemporary art has all this as its background. Because of my age I can understand why these artists worked in a hopeless state. It is because they lost the passion they had at a younger age. They became bored so the content of their work is a reflection of their own status, of their lives. If you ask me which of the two streams I prefer, I would say the latter one, as it recorded the feelings and state at that time contemporary to my life.

I also like even younger artists today and people who are no longer young but have never become very famous, just because their artistic forms are not focused on reflecting their own life and therefore is not understood by or popular with mainstream audiences. More often they focus on society, their ideal and use satire. I like people of this kind who are serious enough to try to understand and remain critical of the society. For instance, I have among my collection pieces by Sun Yuan and Peng Yu, who are a couple in Beijing in their 40s. Their works shows cruelty and criticism, or you can say its barbaric, or horrible. But you can see their thinking in them. Xiao Yu is also a very critical artist. I have one of his pieces in my collection. In that piece he combined two famous buildings (the two new Olympic buildings) in Beijing, which together resemble an ancient Chinese coin.

(Zhang Haoming then drew the Capital Opera House and the new Birds Nest stadium which together resemble an old style Chinese gold bar.)

The artist couple felt as if these achitectural structures are all completed by way of piling a lot of money up. This shows some critical thinking.

I like contemporary art because of its core, which is the concept or the thought, or the idea. Traditional art focused more on technique and approach but overlooked human reasoning. After you look at them you may admire them but they don’t leave you with lots of room for further thought. Many contemporary art works, like installation, video and photography in foreign countries, are a presentation of the creator’s ideal or cry after a brainstorm. Through the creative work of artists, contemporary works not only bring out your emotions, joy, sorrow, they also offer you more aftertaste, the kind you have after reading a book that tells you what the author is trying to say. I often try to figure it out.

Classical works sometimes also try to express some kind of feeling but not as intensely, and their impact is limited. Contemporary artists’ approach and materials are rich and diversified. In addition, their conceptual strength is greater.

My collection currently has 700-800 pieces, mostly large pieces. Between 2002 and 2005 and after 2005 I have focused on installations and photography. Now I also collect video.

TAN: How do you feel about work produced outside of China?

ZHM: My collection has taken on a geographical shift since last year. I have now been collecting contemporary Asian works instead of concentrating on Chinese pieces. Japanese, Korean, Indian. I feel art is without borders. We can have a narrow focus or we can collect anything in the world. I am not personally a nationalist. Since I was young I was not bound by geographical boundaries. This is also reflected in my collection practice. I don’t insist on collecting Chinese work. I feel Chinese contemporary art shows different value at different stages. Sometimes the prices are far above fair value. In the past 2-3 years an art market was formed in China, almost overnight you might say. It was too quick for our artists and collectors and investors to be prepared mentally. Both sides of the market did things irrationally. The artists reproduce their own works in large numbers, while speculators acquire pieces at very high prices. This means the free market has gone out of reasonable control. The control is lost because there are no critics in China. Buyers and sellers have nobody who stands in between and tells them conscientiously, you should not paint like that, and you should not buy like that. So in the recent 2 years, many famous artists have something wrong with their attitude, while investors think they should only focus on these famous names. As a result, famous artists are looking at price only and not taking their reputations seriously. On the other hand, speculators don’t care about quality and their only concern is whether they can resell at higher prices. So I feel the free market in China is now out of control, and I have stayed away from collecting in China. I have instead been paying attention to contemporary arts in Japan, Korea and India.

I do go to auctions and most things I buy there are from foreign countries. I bought almost half of all the items from Japan, Korea and India at the first Christie’ contemporary art auction in Hong Kong, and a Japanese piece sale went very well recently. I visited Japan’s largest auction last year with Huang and Taiwan’s Chen Guanyu, and together we bought about a quarter of all items on sale for only about USD 1 million. The total auction value was only USD 4 million. But in China, with USD 4 million you can only buy one piece by a famous Chinese contemporary artist.
Zhang Hao Ming smiles impishly.

TAN: Are there other areas besides Japan, India and Korea that interest you?
ZHM: I feel the Russian art collection market is promising. For one thing, in Russia the standards of art education are better than in China. Also, culturally speaking Russia is closer to Europe. In particular, many oligarchs have emerged in Russia from the oil industry recently and they are able to acquire top contemporary art works. After all it is a matter of financial strength. So I think Russia will be the next big art collection market, much larger than China. In China we don’t have much systematic collection, is done mostly out from investment circles and boosted by speculation. Many famous collectors I meet do not talk about the art itself but about how much the prices will go up. I am not interested in such discussions. Because many things I bought are not hot items on the auction market. Many installations I own I don’t think anybody else in China would buy.

Installations are not popular with auction houses, because they cannot sell at good prices and their transportation, installation and display are very difficult. So I understand why even in major art expos like Basel most of the items are ‘on the shelf.’ It is basically for display and deal making convenience. Most people today are buying off the shelf items, but in fact, really good collectors today are no longer focusing on these things.

I am trying my best to play two roles today in the art market. The first role is critic. In China we need critics as a force. Most critics have become advertisers. This is unfair for buyers because we need to hear different voices from which we can improve our ability to appreciate art. But when such voices are not here we get lost and feel there is always a pitfall in buying things. I often voice my concern about this problem.

Secondly, art collection is a very personal matter- so do not become superstitious when it comes to any critic, because everyone has his subjective preferences subject to their own taste and assessment. A good collector should both draw upon many people’s strengths and insights and have his own judgment. So collections are all very personalized.

I visited some collectors in Switzerland and I learned a lot. They do not view the pieces as currency or show them off, but really enjoy them. You can see this on their faces. This is what we need in China. Unfortunately today we are always placing price tags on everything. It is misleading. It give ill-intentioned people an opportunity to push up the prices and let people buy things at higher costs Then you are very vulnerable.

The Swiss collect things for two reasons. Today pure art lovers are those who never buy art works. People who buy things typically love art on the one side, while they are not bored of money. The Swiss have a strong banking system just because they have a good sense of protecting money. So had not it been for the financial value of art works, the Swiss would not be that interested in collecting them. I think they know the value of collecting, and they enjoy both the spiritual delight and the financial gains, which are equally indispensable. Otherwise I don’t think you can explain it.

Of course there is a cultural reason. For instance, when Karaoke first came to China, every household who can afford it bought the equipment, no matter if they really enjoyed singing. It was for their guests, to show off. Whenever guests came the host would be able to invite them to sing. When a collecting culture was established, when people in Switzerland visit others’ houses, they would see good art pieces and feel like having the same back home to show their good taste. Given China’s one-child family structure, I believe a piano is a must for every household who can afford it these days.

As I said, most of collectors in China today are buying art for investment purposes. And most collections are oil paintings.

TAN: So are their any critics you follow?

Today’ critics in China have a big problem. In the past critics were at the center of the art market. They were like mentors or movie directors who can decide who should be the leading actors. But today the actors are rich but the directors are poor. So there is an imbalance now. Today, art critics’ incomes are low from the meager amounts paid for curating and the odd art reviews they write. So there is a gap in living standards between these people and artists. They cannot bear this forever.
In China we don’t have a contemporary art gallery system in a real sense, and we don’t have a complete art education system.

TAN: Do you collect any European/US artists?

ZHM: I mostly buy from Art Basel. I have collected some pieces, but as my child is still quite young I keep them in storage. Also, after attending Basel, I was introduced by friends to galleries in France. I have works, from France, Italy, UK, USA, all of these countries, Austria…
TAN: So which artists do you collect? Damien Hirst for instance?
ZHM: Yes, I also have Damien Hirst’s work.
TAN: Jeff Koonz?
ZHM: No, not yet
TAN: Sarah Lucas?
ZHM: Well the thing is I can’t speak English, so I can’t say the names, but I bought a well known German artist’s work in India, he uses a kind of copper, metal to make faces.
TAN: So how do feel about artists such as the Chinese artist who ate a foetus?
ZHM: I think that’s all about fame, for artists its increasingly difficult to become famous. Its my personal feeling it has a strong relation to Damien Hirst, after he did the work with the dead Shark.
TAN: So they are taking Damien Hirst’s ideas to its ultimate conclusion?
ZHM: Yes. That is correct.
TAN: So, for instance, in some countries like the UK, artists are often perceived to be crazy, or mentally unstable by the public? Is there much of this in China?
ZHM: Yes, we have it too. We have an artist in our gallery who is actually having mental disease, when he is ill it is too bad, but when he is OK he is extremely aware, very correct.
TAN: So which artists do you feel are important for the future?
ZHM: I think for the future there is one artist who is very interesting and important, her name is Li Bo. In Basel this time we showed a piece of her work, she spent a lot of time on it, an installation, built out of string. It is my feeling, this society, in the future, what is their (artists) destiny? I think paintings and selling them, I think this slowly, if you want to be an artist, this idea will go away. I think in the future an artists ability and method, if they wish to become successful, I think globally, they need to address this. If a society wants to improve, for instance its like scientists, what do you want them for? If they can’t provide us, the people, with our requirements, then we don’t want them, because everything they produce is bad for the earth, then what use are they? So for artists, they should bring us what we need, similar to design, they need to bring us design that will bring positive changes to our lives, that is to say, my current idea is to bring art to life, and then art can enliven life. Artists, they should bring us some new feeling and impression about lifestyles, how we live. Truly I believe in the work of Joseph Beuys, that everyone is an artist, everything is art, it is about how we manipulate it. They should make us, everyone, increasingly more satisfied, at ease in our lives.
TAN: Well, you are putting a lot of pressure on artists with this philosophy.
ZHM: Well, it should be like that, in the future, artists, that should be their future direction. The pressure comes from implementation. I see two ways, directions, for this. One type is development of art, the other is development of design. Art, well, maybe it will be of no practical use, but it will be a discovery of something along the way, but then they should consider some application of this discovery into our lives. Things they discover, anyone can discover, I can discover. Or is it to say if you are an artist, so only an artist can produce art work, so if I am not an artist so I am just messing about?
TAN: So how do you see things developing over the next twenty years?
ZHM: From a collectors perspective, it is to do with the history of collecting. There are many types of directions, physical work, word based, internal discussions, also older civilizations paintings, brush work, painting, and so on, all developed in relation to history, so in 20 years time, looking back at today’s art works, we will be very clear. This is to say because artists should be ten to twenty years ahead of the current society in their ideas. So today’s work, certainly you couldn’t expect today’s society to really understand it. But if you turn your head and look back in twenty years time you will see very clearly, you will see them all as visionaries, how were they able to think of those things at that time? So, to be a collector, it is much, much better than being the usual type of investor.
I mean to make money, you can do that easily, with cars, or tea, buying paintings, whatever, makes money, there is no difference. But we are lucky there is so much good (art) work now we can invest in for the future. But being a collector, this is an extremely happy, satisfying thing, it is much further ahead in this feeling of satisfaction than investment. So that is why I never mix collecting with business. Business is about my requirement for money, collecting is about my cultural and spiritual needs.
TAN: So, talking about business, you work in the telecom field?
ZHM: I used to, but now I create investment vehicles that have a relation to art. For instance, I am developing an art hotel in the Worker’s Stadium here in Beijing. The exterior is finished, but due to the Olympics we have stopped work until September or October, so it won’t be ready until next year. There will be 45 rooms, the majority designed by foreign designers, working together with local artists. So various contemporary artists have built their works actually in the room. So there are some new concepts in this plan, you cannot ask an artist to go ahead and do a room, they cannot do this, but combined with designers they can combine art and lifestyles, this is the main concept of the hotel. So to say it simply, as soon as you enter this hotel you will feel art influence your spirit.

TAN: Was this influenced by any other projects you have seen abroad?

ZHM: You will find that this in China is very different to anything you will find abroad.

TAN: Will it be expensive to stay there?

ZHM: It won’t be cheap, $500 to $1000 per night. About the same as those kind of designer hotels abroad. The biggest differences, compared to similar projects abroad, in Europe, for instance their main focus is around traditional hotel methodology, while we are not quite the same, and also for them, expense, a large part of the emphasis is on the people part, for instance, a bed, the expense on that bed in all aspects, is very high abroad. But in China, it is the exact opposite, people expenses are not as high. Also, in Italy, or Paris, for instance, they have converted old buildings, and the bathroom rooms, are not very big, but the price is still high.

TAN: And any other projects?

ZHM: Yes, I am working on a new concept restaurant. The concept being guest will cook their own food. We will provide chefs to assist, and purchase ingredients according to requirements. It is like this in China, no one, from young, cooks anymore, and that is very bad. So we will provide a room, and all the equipment, and then you can invite your guests and cook for them. This is a very new idea. For instance, we are already talking to some embassies, they will bring some famous chefs from their country and they can prepare a meal in the restaurant. At the same time I am planning a TV series, so we will film the people cooking, a bit like reality TV, if you agree we will film while you are cooking. It will be very interesting.